The Official Buthayna the Spy Thread

[Andreas]

Julia, Stone did not have any votes for Episode Four.
What is the significance of her "interesting connection' to Stone?

You forgot the faulty logic part Julia, in reasons Stone was suspected.

I think you are twisting things Julia. It says "I had talked to Vladimir and Hank, and both said he was targeted for both faulty logic and lurking."

It does not say "Vladimir and Hank called Stone a lurker".

Which goes along with your questioning them. You asked both if they thought Stone was a lurker, which is not in the proper context. It isn't down to a fact of whether or not they thought Stone was a lurker; but what they said he was targeted for. Unless I am missing something obvious, in that both Hank and Vladimir were suspicious of Stone, and their reasons were hislurking and faulty logic.

Buthayna's statements in regards to her worrying over looking like a bandwagoner, does not look contrived or false. Why is her worry over it suspicious Julia?

What does Buthayna's memory have to do with anything, Julia?

I think there is a point involving this traitor business. However I feel that how you ask questions and get answers, is not entirely clear. You do these things in the wrong context, and can be borderline twisting yourself.

Furthermore, how does her looking over the Spies 6 game, mean that she is lying about being a new player? I don't entirely think that is a point to her being a spy. We all have real identities, and we are not supposed to give that kind of information away. I believe that people are going to lie about information that pertains to their real identity, because of the consequences if someone found out.


Okay, only my responses to Julia's post/case.

[Julia]

Julia I've told you once and I'll tell you again. Some of the stuff you sounds is all fine and dandy; but what I've presented overrules your case in MY opinion. I think Buth is Cit.

Well, that specific opinion is wrong. Again, the "overruling" things you think about are speculative, not concrete, and there are fewer of them.

1. First, toJulia's claim that I lied about my reasons, not to suspect Stone, I can only refute that by saying I misunderstood what Vladimir said. I thought that someone not proactively looking for spies means that they are lurking, when that is not the case. I also associated Hank in that conversation with Vladimir because he was in the group chat with him, so when I told other people why I would not be voting Stone I said that both Vladimir and Hank told me that, which was not correct. Also, Julia is missing my other reason of why I did not suspect Stone, which was from my conversation with Kleyton in which he told me that he suspected Stone because Stone freaked out on Kleyton when Kleyton was lying to Kathie about being a cop to get her to tell the truth about being a spy. Kleyton told me that Stone tried to get him kicked out of the game, which made me think that Kleyton's suspicion mainly stemmed from being annoyed that Stone would try and get him kicked out. I do not have time right now, but I can look back through my chats and find where I had told people that on the Illuminati team.

Buthy, I already covered how it was NOT a simple misunderstanding.

It's a combination of:

1. Misunderstanding of Vladimir.
2. Mistake by adding Hank in under it.
3. A Twisting by randomly adding in that they said lurking is WHY he was suspected.

The mistake of what Vladimir said is only the very beginning, and is NOT the most suspicious part of the claim. You mistook what he said AND Mistook someone else as also saying it AND then mistook that they somehow 'said' this was the main reason Stone was suspicious to begin with.

THREE big mistakes in ONE claim very short, sentence-long that you said to multiple people? I find that HIGHLY unlikely.

Where did you get the idea that they said that lurking was why Stone was being targeted? That came completely out of nowhere, as if maybe you assumed it was right until somebody corrected you.
...............................

2. Julia's second claim for me is that I pushed for Daria to be voted out. I believe that she is twisting that meeting around to make it look like I was agressively pushing for Daria to be voted out when that Is not the case. There is a difference between stating your suspicions about someone and actively arguing with people who try to refute the cases. The way the meetings went in the Freemason team was that a person was presented, and everyone would present their opinion on them. If anyone would like to see a copy of that chat that does not have only snippits of my contributions against Daria, please look here:

There's not a twisting at all. You WERE one of the most aggressive early pushers of suspicion on Daria. And I never said you were actively arguing with anybody who tried to refute a case against Daria; overdefensive, much?

The Jim Bob wagon did not officially start until after the team meeting, during the discussion the day after. The reason the old Daria bandwagoned was from the posts in the voting thread, not the team meeting.If Julia had done any research into the first round of the Freemasons she would know this.

It doesn't matter when it started. The case on JimBob started tha night, and Daria was there, so to claim that she was suspicious for voting JimBob because she shouldn't have known to vote for him is a fallacy. She was there, she saw the suspicions laid against him, and she saw that he didn't defend himself.

And I'm not arguing why she ACTUALLY voted JimBob, that's IRRELEVANT. I'm arguing against one of YOUR reasons to suspect her, which was, at the time, that she shouldn't have known to JimBob. I was merely pointing out that she DID know about the JimBob case regardless of whether or not she showed up after the meeting, and you were at the meeting and should have known that.
Maybe if you'd done a little more research or, IDK, paid attention at the meeting, you'd have known that, too.

3. Julia claims that I am not a new player to the game. I am a new player to the game, and I am not sure if there is any evidence that I can use to convince people otherwise. I feel that I cannot give any real evidence of this without revealing my true identity, but I do hope that in my conversations I have had with most of you, you people realize that I am new and have been trying to learn. Sometimes I appear more knowledgeable than a total newbie to the game, but is it any crime to want to not seem like a total idiot about the game? I do not think so.

There's no way to prove that, for you or for me. I personally feel that you're lying about it.
If you're trying to get better then why have your ONLY posts the past 43634624 years been to defend yourself, and NOT hunt for Spies?

4. Julia says that I actively lurk. This is very true. I have tried not to but I usually keep quiet in group chats because, as I am not around and do not talk to many of you a lot, I do not have new information to add. I do feel the need to respond when I am accused in chats, however, because I feel that just to ignore it would make people presume that I do not refute the claims for me to be a spy.

Right, it is true. You lurk.

And to be frank, I do not really feel like an accepted member of the group in the first place, so why should I contribute to the idle chatter? Julia makes sure to isolate me usually directly from the moment I enter a chat with refering to me as "Buthayna the Spy" and I feel ostracized.

Oh come on, Buthy. I enter chat rooms and Yuri curses me out. Do I care? No. Do I cry about it? No. Just because I call you a Spy when you enter doesn't mean that you're magiclly isolated. Laugh it off and move on with your life. Most of the time I'm saying it jovially anyways. And I even tried apologizing to you about it when you first said you had a problem with it, and you ignored it, so I figured in that case I wouldn't worry about it.

If you can't handled being called a Spy then there must be a reason for that... Maybe because you are one?

Anyway, those are my refutes as of right now. I need to continue reading the rest of the burg and may come back later to add some more points.

So to recap:

Point 1. You have yet to address how you came up with Hank and Vlad ALSO saying that Stone was mainly suspected because he was a lurker (Which neither of them said and only one of them said anything remotely similar).

Point 2. You tried to refute an argument that was NOT made by me. Please review my clarification above.

Point 3. As I said from the beginning, this is speculation and there's no way either of us can argue about it. I do think the whole reading the names of role role thing is absolute BS.

Point 4. You agreed with this point.

[Andreas]

On the point of being a new player.
This can mean different things. New to Spies alone, new to the entire mafia concept, etcetera.

[Julia]

Buthy claims new to the game itself. I don't buy it.

[Andreas]

That is it?

[Julia]

No, of course that's not it, I explain why I don't buy it in the first post in this thread

[Andreas]

No response to my post at all?

[Joshua]

Feb 24, 2010 0:48:57 GMT -5 Andreas said:

Furthermore, how does her looking over the Spies 6 game, mean that she is lying about being a new player? I don't entirely think that is a point to her being a spy. We all have real identities, and we are not supposed to give that kind of information away. I believe that people are going to lie about information that pertains to their real identity, because of the consequences if someone found out.

i dnt thnk julia is saying butty is a spy bcuse butty looked at a spies 6 game thats stupid.

i thnk the thng here is dat butty looked at a spies game b4 see wat it means, been in ths game 4 a long tym but she has nt used dat knwlege to find spies. and wen we askd her y she hasnt prsntd any kind of suspicion or case its bcus she dsnt know wat to luk 4? bullshit.

[Joshua]

Feb 24, 2010 0:39:56 GMT -5 Buthayna said:

And to be frank, I do not really feel like an accepted member of the group in the first place, so why should I contribute to the idle chatter? Julia makes sure to isolate me usually directly from the moment I enter a chat with refering to me as "Buthayna the Spy" and I feel ostracized.

u knw wat thres smething that i got accusd of in 1 gam i playd they told me i was lyk doing that wat u did. i thnk it was calld apeal to drama. u knw wen u ask 4 sympaty but u dnt rlly use logic.

i dnt fukin care f u fil sad or smethng. f ur a cit u shud be luking for spies nt feelng outsyd d group. d nly ppl that feel not in d group r spies bcus they r outnmbred!

[Cassidy]

Oh look Julia, people are refuting your points and your only response is to cry about it and say the exact same thing you originally said.

Two of your big points (the pushing on Daria and the Jimbob wagon) are incorrect, and you weren't even on the freemasons at the time. The jimbob wagon did NOT start at the first team meeting. The first team meeting we announced our main votes, and jimbob barely got any. Most of that meeting was spent arguing about Jaiden's cases on sophi and dylan. So nice try, but you are incorrect. Buthayna listed who she had some suspicions of, but basically was saying that Sophi seemed to have some good point.

I know who Buthayna is, and she has not played before, though she has played survivor games. Another point where you are incorrect. The Vlad/Hank thing could be suspicious, but it mainly looks like she might have been trying her hand at being manipulative. She didn't really understand lurking early on like episode 1 and 2 and was asking different people in 1-on-1 IM's about lurking (again, you weren't on freemasons so you DON'T KNOW), and she got a lot of different definitions. Andreas raised a valid point that she said that Vlad/Hank said Stone was TARGETED for lurking and other things. Not that they thought he was a lurker. If there were like 4 people in the room and Vlad said something and Hank and the other person didn't say anything to the contrary, it could be seen as them raising the point together, since people DO have a tendency to gang up on buthayna since it's rare for her to be in a group chat. So, manipulative, but definitely not worthy of a vote by itself.

[Julia]

Feb 24, 2010 0:48:57 GMT -5 Andreas said:

Julia, Stone did not have any votes for Episode Four.
What is the significance of her "interesting connection' to Stone?

You forgot the faulty logic part Julia, in reasons Stone was suspected.

The significance is that she and he were the two people searching for a Traitor and that she had to make up a reason NOT to expect him. Usually if you need a reason not to expect someone that isn't real, there's a reason for that.

I think you are twisting things Julia. It says "I had talked to Vladimir and Hank, and both said he was targeted for both faulty logic and lurking."

They didn't say that at the time, though. This is many episodes later, where he DID start actually lurking and disappearing.

It does not say "Vladimir and Hank called Stone a lurker".

Right. It ALSO doesn't say ANYTHING that had actually been said at the time.

Which goes along with your questioning them. You asked both if they thought Stone was a lurker, which is not in the proper context. It isn't down to a fact of whether or not they thought Stone was a lurker; but what they said he was targeted for. Unless I am missing something obvious, in that both Hank and Vladimir were suspicious of Stone, and their reasons were hislurking and faulty logic.

No, more like faulty READING comprehension on your part. After I asked them if they saw Stone as a Lurker I SHOWED THEM THE BUTHAYNA QUOTE!! They both denied saying what Buthayna quoted or believing it at the time!

Buthayna's statements in regards to her worrying over looking like a bandwagoner, does not look contrived or false. Why is her worry over it suspicious Julia?

It doesn't have to be contrived or false. Worrying about looking bad looks bad in my opinion.

What does Buthayna's memory have to do with anything, Julia?

It's kind of like a character witness. It shows that she has good memory over just about anything you ask her about, and yet somehow she has some GIGANTIC memory lapse over what Vlad said.

I think there is a point involving this traitor business. However I feel that how you ask questions and get answers, is not entirely clear. You do these things in the wrong context, and can be borderline twisting yourself.

Not true, as I stated above where you missed the point.

Furthermore, how does her looking over the Spies 6 game, mean that she is lying about being a new player? I don't entirely think that is a point to her being a spy. We all have real identities, and we are not supposed to give that kind of information away. I believe that people are going to lie about information that pertains to their real identity, because of the consequences if someone found out.

Simple logic, Andreas.

1. She says she looked at the past game to get an idea of what the roles were that would appear in the game.
2. She reads the names of the roles but NOT what the roles actually are, which defeats the purpose of looking them up.
3. She makes a theory based on an assumption that she could have verified in 5 seconds reading the Spies6 Traitor description.
4. She hasn't made a SINGLE case for looking for Spies. Her ONLY investigating has been looking for a Traitor.

Does that sound like a Citizen? You do the math.

[Andreas]

Honestly Julia, you are making Buthayna look more like a citizen with every post that you make in regards to her.
You seem to have this preconceived notion that she is a spy, and are thusly trying to fit every possible action of hers into this Spy mold. You are doing spy hunting in reverse.

[Julia]

Feb 24, 2010 17:46:37 GMT -5 Andreas said:

Honestly Julia, you are making Buthayna look more like a citizen with every post that you make in regards to her.
You seem to have this preconceived notion that she is a spy, and are thusly trying to fit every possible action of hers into this Spy mold. You are doing spy hunting in reverse.

Based on what, Andreas? You're full of it. When I destroy your flimsy arguments your only response is "Well she's a citizen."?? You made a point about the Hank/Vlad thing that wasn't even true. I showed them the quote and asked them about it, and you're trying to say that me asking them if they thought Stone was a Spy wasn't the right question to ask.

Well of COURSE it wasn't THE right question to ask. I simply asked it first and THEN asked the RIGHT question. But you conveniently somhow didn't even read that part.

Buthayna is a Spy, Cassidy is a Spy, and you're a Spy, Andreas. have fun defending your Spy partner. It's funny how you're defending Buthayna so hard and yet you haven't done ANYTHING else in terms of defending or suspecting people publicly. Maybe you should focus on someone other than your Spy partner for a change.

[Andreas]

You really should learn to control yourself Julia.
If you actually wanted people to refute points and find holes in your case; to ensure you were not wrong about Buthayna it would be a different story. But the entire facade is blatantly obvious. All you care about is exiling Buthayna, regardless of the "evidence" you seem to think is locked tight. Guess what Julia, the exile voting thread is very evidence that your case against Buthayna is weak.

I am quite certain that I have discussed other people publicly. Perhaps if you had not been so far up Chloe's arse when she was here, you probably would have been aware that there are other people in The Burg, and we do talk.

[Julia]

Feb 24, 2010 18:01:47 GMT -5 Andreas said:

You really should learn to control yourself Julia.
If you actually wanted people to refute points and find holes in your case; to ensure you were not wrong about Buthayna it would be a different story. But the entire facade is blatantly obvious. All you care about is exiling Buthayna, regardless of the "evidence" you seem to think is locked tight. Guess what Julia, the exile voting thread is very evidence that your case against Buthayna is weak.

I am quite certain that I have discussed other people publicly. Perhaps if you had not been so far up Chloe's arse when she was here, you probably would have been aware that there are other people in The Burg, and we do talk.

No, when people make legitimate questions or arguments against my case such as Vladimir and Sophi have done, I respond accordingly. But when people like you and Yuri make false arguments against non-points or about things you're claiming aren't in the case when they ARE, then yeah, I'm gonna shoot that down instantly.

And actually the case is quite strong. If you believe otherwise, given the fact that you've said to raise any legitimate arguments against any of the points, then you're not that bright. And there are currently 5 votes against Buthayna, so I'd say there's support for it.

And how was I up Chloe's anything? I allowed her to give me information. She and I didn't even talk ALL that often because she was Jailed an episode and we weren't always on at the same time, and I disagreed with her wanting to Exile Bianca as a Spy. (Note: I disagreed that Bianca was going to flip Spy but I wasn't totally against exiling her because losing her wasn't really losing anything but dead weight).

[Cassidy]

the votes for buthayna are you, the idiot; sophi, the idiot's lackey; hank, who never stated his reasons, joshua, who's reasons are that he knows it's her. Hmm, actually, that's only four people. Dylan never posted his vote, but he is a spy and will probably vote her to save his own skin.

[Joshua]

cassidy u bitch u ddnt read my reasns. pls stop caling us names and lyk jst reply to d points. nobdy ahs rplied 2 me. f ur a spy with andy ur doing a gud job.

[Hank]

My reasons go back to when I first pushed for her during Episode 6. Nothing has changed to set aside those reasons. On top of that, I think there are some legitimate points within Julia's case on Buthayna.

Here's the link the thread where I posted everything. It's like post 6 or something. Not sure who to link directly to one post or I'd do that. Sorry.
spies7.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=burg561&action=display&thread=2552

Now off for poker and pizza. Lumberjacks gotta play sometimes too.

[Cassidy]

hank, if you are still around, please go post that link in the exile vote thread. Sorry joshua.

[Joshua]

OY OY, CASSDY! WRONG THREAD FOR THIS! Cass, f u hav apoligies u want 2 say put it n d ryt thred.

[Cassidy]

go read joshua

[Yuri]

Feb 24, 2010 8:48:09 GMT -5 Cassidy said:

Oh look Julia, people are refuting your points and your only response is to cry about it and say the exact same thing you originally said.

[Cassidy]

alright julia, we'll give your way a try.

[Joshua]

i luv u now cass

[Julia]

Yes, you should give my way a try... Buthy must DIIIEEEEE